This week, and after a bit of confusion regarding the order of episodes, it’s time for Revelations. If you have any questions, problems or suggestions, feel free to let me or one of the other moderators know. You can contact us via PM or our Bronx-guarded mailbox.
Enjoy the discussion!
I’ve always had a soft spot for Matt Bluestone, which is why I’ve always had a soft spot for Revelations. As far as I was concerned when I first watched it, it was about time he got to find out the truth about the clan. Particularly after the events of The Silver Falcon, which is, more or less, the prequel to this episode.
If you need a refresher, for The Silver Falcon, the discussion post can be here. Either way, enjoy the discussion here.
Points of Interest
(I’m just highlight a few bits and pieces here. Feel free to take the discussion in any direction you like!!)
Matt and Elisa
“Just tell me why. Why did you keep me in the dark for so long?”
“It’s not that I didn’t trust you. I guess I just didn’t want to share them.”
According to Greg’s episode memo, the theme of the episode was ‘trust’. You only have to look at Elisa and Matt to see that that rings true. This time, however, it is Elisa’s deception that is causing trouble. (In The Silver Falcon, it was Matt’s secrecy that got him into trouble. He learned a lesson from it, but Elisa apparently hasn’t.) Do you think he was entitled to feel betrayed? If theirs roles had been reversed, would he have told Elisa about the clan?
I was surprised by the opening of the episode. Not only because the commentary was unexpected – although it worked well when it came to getting Matt’s thoughts across – but because Matt was playing the bad guy. Did you think he was really on the wrong side? I did. Which wasn’t necessarily a bad thing, of course, since I love a great many of the gargoyle villains. The scene in the car was alarming. His voice and his facial expression – switching from permanent scepticism, for once – did a great job of conveying just how betrayed he felt. I wasn’t sure how far he’d actually go to get Elisa to realise the truth.
At first, I wondered why Matt believed Mace so easily. But we’d already been shown that he knew Elisa had been lying to him. Showing that little scene at the beginning of the episode was a good idea. (I knew why Elisa was lying, and I understood why Elisa was lying, but I still felt sorry for Matt.)
In this episode, Matt went up a great deal in my estimation. His reason for pursuing Mace Malone was more than just the Illuminati aspect. He was interested in organised crime. Less of conspiracy nut and more of a police officer willing to pursue unexpected pathways.
And, conversely, Elisa went down in my estimation. At least for a little while. I was disappointed that she’d kept them a secret in order to feel special. For a long time, and as a child viewer, I tried to convince myself that she’d done it for a noble reason. Because, even though she trusted Matt, she could guarantee their safety more easily if she was the only one in the know. But then I grew up and realised that flawed characters were more interesting, and Elisa’s show of humanity made her a bit more human and a bit less perfect.
Matt and Goliath
“Trust is not a commodity to be bought.”
Just a small section here, but, given that the theme of the episode was ‘trust’, I thought it warranted mentioning. I love Goliath’s initial reaction to Matt – and his reaction to Matt asking him for a favour in exchange for his silence. After all, he’s been watching Matt for a long time. He knows what Elisa’s partner is supposed to be like. The bartering Matt isn’t the Matt he knows, and it isn’t the Matt we know either.
I’m glad it was just a front.
The Illuminati
“For a man pushing a hundred, you're amazingly well preserved. How accommodating of the society to provide their senior members with rejuvenation drugs.”
“You should see the dental plan.”
The Illuminati are interesting not because of their place in the real world, but because we never get to find out what they’re really up to. Demona wants revenge on humanity, Xanatos wants immortality, but we never get to find out what the organisation’s purpose really is. I’m going to go out on a limb and say ‘sinister’, though.
In fact, I’m definitely going to go for ‘sinister’. How else could you describe the Hotel Cabal? I wasn’t surprised to learn that it was initially supposed to be linked to Disney’s Tower of Terror ride. The idea of breaking people is such a horrible, psychological way is very like something out of a horror movie. Greg’s memo spoke about wanting it to look like something out of an Escher painting, which means that you’d never know where you were and every exit would be another trap and another corner. I don’t know about you, but that’d scare me more than blades and guns. (Probably, anyway.) We know Goliath can hold his own in most fights, but how could be possibly fight against something like that? Mace’s ending was definitely highly unpleasant. I know he was the bad guy, but … ouch.
Speaking of Illuminati members, what are your thoughts on Hacker? I liked the day he book ended the episode, which Greg drew attention to in the memo. First he told Matt that the society wasn’t real, then he invited him to join at the very end. I don’t know, he struck me as fairly innocuous on the outside. I always wanted to know if he was actually more than he seemed.
Episode Roundup
Gargoyles Defying the Laws of Physics: The entire segment in the hotel defined the laws of physics!
Star Trek Voices: Not today!
Dramatic Awakening Scenes: 1
New Minor Returning Characters:
- Mace Malone
- Jack Dane
Handy Links
- GargWiki
- Greg’s Episode Ramble
Enjoy the discussion!
I’ve always had a soft spot for Matt Bluestone, which is why I’ve always had a soft spot for Revelations. As far as I was concerned when I first watched it, it was about time he got to find out the truth about the clan. Particularly after the events of The Silver Falcon, which is, more or less, the prequel to this episode.
If you need a refresher, for The Silver Falcon, the discussion post can be here. Either way, enjoy the discussion here.
Points of Interest
(I’m just highlight a few bits and pieces here. Feel free to take the discussion in any direction you like!!)
Matt and Elisa
“It’s not that I didn’t trust you. I guess I just didn’t want to share them.”
According to Greg’s episode memo, the theme of the episode was ‘trust’. You only have to look at Elisa and Matt to see that that rings true. This time, however, it is Elisa’s deception that is causing trouble. (In The Silver Falcon, it was Matt’s secrecy that got him into trouble. He learned a lesson from it, but Elisa apparently hasn’t.) Do you think he was entitled to feel betrayed? If theirs roles had been reversed, would he have told Elisa about the clan?
I was surprised by the opening of the episode. Not only because the commentary was unexpected – although it worked well when it came to getting Matt’s thoughts across – but because Matt was playing the bad guy. Did you think he was really on the wrong side? I did. Which wasn’t necessarily a bad thing, of course, since I love a great many of the gargoyle villains. The scene in the car was alarming. His voice and his facial expression – switching from permanent scepticism, for once – did a great job of conveying just how betrayed he felt. I wasn’t sure how far he’d actually go to get Elisa to realise the truth.
At first, I wondered why Matt believed Mace so easily. But we’d already been shown that he knew Elisa had been lying to him. Showing that little scene at the beginning of the episode was a good idea. (I knew why Elisa was lying, and I understood why Elisa was lying, but I still felt sorry for Matt.)
In this episode, Matt went up a great deal in my estimation. His reason for pursuing Mace Malone was more than just the Illuminati aspect. He was interested in organised crime. Less of conspiracy nut and more of a police officer willing to pursue unexpected pathways.
And, conversely, Elisa went down in my estimation. At least for a little while. I was disappointed that she’d kept them a secret in order to feel special. For a long time, and as a child viewer, I tried to convince myself that she’d done it for a noble reason. Because, even though she trusted Matt, she could guarantee their safety more easily if she was the only one in the know. But then I grew up and realised that flawed characters were more interesting, and Elisa’s show of humanity made her a bit more human and a bit less perfect.
Matt and Goliath
Just a small section here, but, given that the theme of the episode was ‘trust’, I thought it warranted mentioning. I love Goliath’s initial reaction to Matt – and his reaction to Matt asking him for a favour in exchange for his silence. After all, he’s been watching Matt for a long time. He knows what Elisa’s partner is supposed to be like. The bartering Matt isn’t the Matt he knows, and it isn’t the Matt we know either.
I’m glad it was just a front.
The Illuminati
“You should see the dental plan.”
The Illuminati are interesting not because of their place in the real world, but because we never get to find out what they’re really up to. Demona wants revenge on humanity, Xanatos wants immortality, but we never get to find out what the organisation’s purpose really is. I’m going to go out on a limb and say ‘sinister’, though.
In fact, I’m definitely going to go for ‘sinister’. How else could you describe the Hotel Cabal? I wasn’t surprised to learn that it was initially supposed to be linked to Disney’s Tower of Terror ride. The idea of breaking people is such a horrible, psychological way is very like something out of a horror movie. Greg’s memo spoke about wanting it to look like something out of an Escher painting, which means that you’d never know where you were and every exit would be another trap and another corner. I don’t know about you, but that’d scare me more than blades and guns. (Probably, anyway.) We know Goliath can hold his own in most fights, but how could be possibly fight against something like that? Mace’s ending was definitely highly unpleasant. I know he was the bad guy, but … ouch.
Speaking of Illuminati members, what are your thoughts on Hacker? I liked the day he book ended the episode, which Greg drew attention to in the memo. First he told Matt that the society wasn’t real, then he invited him to join at the very end. I don’t know, he struck me as fairly innocuous on the outside. I always wanted to know if he was actually more than he seemed.
Episode Roundup
Gargoyles Defying the Laws of Physics: The entire segment in the hotel defined the laws of physics!
Star Trek Voices: Not today!
Dramatic Awakening Scenes: 1
New Minor Returning Characters:
- Mace Malone
- Jack Dane
Handy Links
- GargWiki
- Greg’s Episode Ramble
i think keeping the point of the Illuminati unknown adds to the whole concept of the secret society working in the shadows we know they are there and doing things but we don't know what or why
As for the Hotel I'd just like to say that hurting someone physically is relatively easy, any street thug can do that. But to really get somebody the way that the illuminati would need to get those capable of threatening it? They need something like The Cabal.
But you are right. Most of the time she did seem like she could do no wrong. She was kind, courageous, loyal, smart, open-minded, caring, etc. With qualities like that it probably was an afterthought.
I don't feel like this is the case at all. "a lie by omission is still a lie." She's been lying since the very beginning to her family. Notice how she never feels comfortable about telling Derek, who she seems very close to, even after Goliath told her several times to tell him about them. And her reaction to learning that Xanatos told him about them. A few episodes ago, she had conflicted feelings about wanting to save the gargoyles. She never seemed perfect to me from the get-go.
I have to say that this is another of my favorite episodes. One of the things I love about it is the writing. The dialogue is fantastic. Particularly lines like the ones you posted:
"How accommodating of the society to provide their senior members with rejuvenation drugs.”
“You should see the dental plan.”
I'm sure for younger viewers, lines like that probably went over their heads, but it's a great line and very witty, effective for the notorious character Mace Malone who we finally meet.
On that note - I remember thoroughly enjoying the fact that we actually met Mace. He was described in "The Silver Falcon" and sort of put on a pedestal as an iconic figure. So I was pleased when the character himself lived up to the expectation reasonably well.
Curious that Elisa went "down in your estimation." Her keeping them a secret never bothered me. I could understand why she did, and I didn't think it was as simple as "she wanted to feel special." I think it's similar to when your high school friends meet your college friends and they actually get along; it's weird. It's like a clashing of worlds. It doesn't make it wrong that you want to keep them separate, but it's ultimately nicer when everyone gets along and can hang out together. I think Elisa learns that in the episode. Plus, Matt's initial reaction is, I think, exactly what she was afraid of. But once that passes, all is....okay, not well until the end of the episode, but close enough. :)
I agree that the scene in the car was well done. The animation was stellar, too; the dark shadows under their eyes, the scenery speeding up in the background, etc.
It made sense to me that Matt believed Mace so quickly, too, because of Mace's opening: "Information, courtesy of David Xanatos." "You've got my attention." I think Matt knows to listen up when Xanatos is involved, plus he knows that Elisa was tied up with Xanatos from way back. So I think the set up was great; plus Mace wasn't lying either, which always helps.
I agree with you about Hacker, for the most part - I always expected (and hoped) that he would show up again in the future, but he never did. I was always a little disappointed about that.
Honestly, though, the ending of the episode (regarding Mace) always struck me as a little disturbing. I realize now that the Illuminati probably helped him out eventually, but it's still creepy, what happens in the Hotel Cabal. Not a pleasant place...
Although, it's yet another example of how the show is more dark than most usual Disney faire.
Yeah, see but that's the point. It's supposed to annoy us. She has flaws, she's human. Would you really prefer yet another Mary Sue?
I don't see how it's forced either. Elisa didn't tell anyone about the gargoyles right from the very beginning. She didn't even tell her brother who she was extremely close to, even after Goliath told her to do so. Yeah, it wasn't a trust issue, and I really think it was as simple as her being selfish when it came to the gargs. I'm rather curious why you guys had thought this came out of left field, because it always seemed very in-character to me, and actually explained some of her earlier behavior. And a few episodes later in "The cage", she STILL doesn't let her family know when she has the chance to tell them.
I like how she has conflicted emotions about the gargs. She wants them to herself yet sometimes she feels she doesn't want anything to do with them. I'm sure her feelings about Goliath are equally as confused. That's one of the reasons she's my favorite character because I can connect with those contradicting feelings (not about gargoyles of course lol). And the fact that she doesn't exactly "learn her lesson" is equally pesronally understandable to me. Old habits die hard. I seriously doubt that anyone in here has never done anything that pisses off their closest friends or relatives ;)